mom has started in a parenting group in church

[Vikinggene]

First, the information I'm sharing isn't necessarily my own belief or practice. I'm not advocating either. I was a consultant for Child Protection for over a decade. I have accumulated a lot of information about cultural practices in Southern states, where the Bible Belt is located. I've read cases on many of these questions and have reviewed the court decisions. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a training specialist, among other management functions.

The scope of some of my work was to develop policy that did not overreach parents’ legal rights to raise their children, as they see fit. (Just one of those is religious freedom, 1st amendment, Bill of Rights, US Constitution.) Then, to have a board approve that policy. Then, to build an ongoing training program for CPS workers and foster care sides. The objective wasn't to educate workers. University does that. I was hired for Risk Management to avoid litigation and settlement awards from parents suing agencies. I'm happy to respond to questions. But, I don't do machine-gun responses, spraying 25 words or less.

I believe I recognize, in Julie's post, the benchmarks of biblical discipline, as practiced by many evangelical Christians in the States. I have reviewed samples of tapes in the past of an American group lecturing in both, Denmark and the Netherlands. (Check utube, search, spanking kids) Julie lives in Denmark. My comments speak to the basis for the changes in protocol that she is experiencing.

While I'm confident in the policies in the US toward their practices, I’ve been surprised to find people from banned nations spank their children. My explanations address these groups teachings and it's lawful practice here. Anything they teach will have a scriptural basis to it and that will be cited. For question one, I have selected a couple of short highlights from real sermons. You can find many articles on Google regarding “cheerful obedience.” Question 2, also excerpt. I’ve enough personal and cultural experience to comment, as well as, respond to question three.

Dear Vikinggene,
I have some questions / points i would ask about and hope you don't mind.
A. what is " cheerful obedience " ?
B. People near you really beat babies of 13 months with whippy rods ??
C. How do you think that respect disappears without the use of the terms ' sir / ma'am ' - i don't understand that. And are not the use of mom / dad not the title to the fact of them being parents ?

Obey Quickly and Cheerfully (A)
Pastor Glenn Durham, Covenant Church
Excerpt:
“Our text reminds me of the four-year old standing in his high chair during dinner one evening, much to his parents’ chagrin. They tried the usual antics to make him sit: begging, reasoning about the dangers of standing in a chair, fussing, and eventually threatening punishment. But for some reason, this night, he would not comply. Exasperated, the mother reached over, grabbed the boy by the arm and drug him down into the sitting position. With great determination and defiance, he yelled, “I may be sitting down on the outside, but I’m still standing up on the inside!”

We learned soon after becoming parents that obedience is more than sitting down on the outside. It does what I ask, when I want it done, and with a good attitude; it is quick and cheerful. In the same way, God’s grace is evident in us when we obey without grumbling or complaining, but with joy. Paul issued that very challenge to the church in Philippi.”

[Read Philippians 2.12-18. Pray.]

Phillip Lancaster
The Mountain Retreat Center
Excerpt:
“True obedience is cheerful obedience. Here we get thoroughly into the matter of attitude. God is always more concerned with heart attitude than with outward actions, though both are important. The great error of the Pharisees was in thinking that God only cares about external conformity to His will. Jesus told them they looked great on the outside, like a beautiful tomb, but that inside they had the putrid stench of decay (Matt. 23:27). Their hearts were far from God, though they scrupulously fretted about being outwardly righteous. Jesus' most scathingly denunciations were reserved for those, who thought pleasing God was just a matter of externals, and who left their hearts out of their religion.

In announcing the curses He would visit on His people when they did not keep His covenant, the Lord said, "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, therefore you shall serve your enemies…" (Deut. 28:47,48). Sometimes God's people grudgingly obey on the outside, but their hearts are not in it. They see God's commands as burdensome and they chafe, even as they obey outwardly. God does not accept such behavior. He wants those, who serve Him with gladness.

Our children must not only conform their actions to the commands we give them, they must also do so with a cheerful spirit and without complaint. This does not mean they cannot seek clarification to be sure they understand what is expected, but their attitude must be right. They cannot be permitted to gripe, or to heave a big sigh of disgust, or to roll their eyes, or to scowl, or to shake their heads, or to walk away from us with body language that communicates disdain. Such behaviors clearly evidence an unsubmissive spirit even if accompanied by outward actions of conformity to the directions given. The rod should be used in such cases as surely as if the child had steadfastly refused to obey at all. To fail to discipline for inward as well as for outward rebellion is to assure that the heart will remain unyielding.”

On the face of it, this belief seems close to what most parents expect, a good attitude. But, I've seen situations here, where the parents’ idea of cheerful was excessive. In any case, this is a high bar in the communities that embrace it. It is lawful here, unless evidence proves the parent is too overbearing. Evidence of that nature, usually comes from witnesses and is very subjective. Don't expect convictions in the Bible Belt.

What Ages to Spank (B)
Phillip Lancaster
The Mountain Retreat
Excerpt:
“NEVER TOO YOUNG, OR OLD: For what age child is discipline with the rod appropriate? The simple answer is, at whatever age he evidences foolish (rebellious) behavior. There is no age too young nor too old. Now practically, when a child is very young, it may be hard to discern when a certain behavior is a lack of submission. Nor does it seem appropriate to take a nine month old across your lap and whale away on his naked legs with a rod. On the other hand, there are times when it is clear that the infant is not getting what he wants, so he screams in protest. This is a form of revolt that should be nipped in the proverbial bud. A moderate stroke or two to the legs with a firm, No, seems proportional to the offense. Those who wait until a child is two or three to start spanking are definitely waiting too long. The child's will evidences itself well before that and ought to be dealt with at its earliest manifestations. The word "promptly" in Proverbs 13:24 may best be translated "early," which would give this rendering: "He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who love him disciplines him early." It's never too early for loving chastisement.

Nor is it ever too late. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that once a child grows to a certain age or size he is immune to this form of punishment. Proverbs makes no such distinctions. The fool of any age deserves stripes on his back for his willful disobedience (19:29). This might even be an appropriate form of discipline for the civil government to use against fools who disturb the peace and order of the community. But certainly it is always appropriate within the family. Of course there is a serious problem if a 16 year old does something that marks him a fool, thus calling for the rod. If the punishment has been used consistently through the years, it is hard to imagine it would still be necessary at that age. If it has not been consistently used, it may not be effective once the child is that old. We are reminded of Eli's sons with whom we began this study. They needed restraint, but how do you restrain someone who is grown and who still has foolishness bound up in this heart? Once again we come to the conclusion that it is absolutely vital to begin the process early and thus avoid the prospect of trying to tame the will of an almost-grown child.”

I would say this is common practice by age 13 months. Any rod at this age would be very thin and no more than one or two strokes would be delivered. However, what I witness doesn't completely conform to this. Most parents are using redirection and may resort to, what we call warning swats* with no rod. So, real spanking age varies from 18-30 months, depending on the child’s nature. Also, many parents never use a rod. That is prevalent in Biblical Discipline (BD). Nine months and up, it is lawful to use an appropriate rod, as long as the number of strokes is limited and no lasting mark is left. It wouldn't be characterized as “a beating.” Keep in mind, caring parents are administering these, just the same way others spank at later ages. It's milder and meant to respond to a child, who has its own will. Abusers will beat a child at any age.

Personally, I've seen children learn through this strategy. But, it's not my cup of tea. I think infants are easy to control by just picking them up. You certainly can't leave one on it's own. So you're always there to intervene.

(*All terms other than corporal punishment/discipline have little legal meaning. There must be fifty words for CP in the U.S. So I'm defining local usage. Southerners have a dozen words for spanking. I'm sticking with this site's word. Swats, slaps, licks and stripes are the most commonly used words for spanks in this region. Warning swats are delivered to the side of the thigh, below the hip joint. Warning swats are Mommy stuff. Where I live, there's a preference that men take the responsibility for spanking, especially older kids or boys. Moms and Dads train them up with swats. At spanking age: Mom swats, Dad spanks. Once kids reach an age, when punishment can be delayed, Dad spanks and Mom pretty much stops (although, she's always got thigh swats in her tool kit.) Spanking tends to be for serious misbehavior. So time out is a good tool for routine keeping the day moving along with younger children. The big stuff with older kids, they like both parents for that discussion, with Dad putting closure on the chapter, if the outcome means a spanking. Single Moms try to have a male relative in the wings.)

Respect ©
In discussing the American way of life, keep in mind, how vast we are. Our regions differ quite a bit in culture. Probably the most pronounced is the Old Confederacy, the South. They don't assimilate outsiders as quickly. Second generations adopt the culture. To put it into context: if you put Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom into a map of the USA, there would be another 38 States remaining. Each of the 50 states has its own Governor, Congress, Militia, Schools, Courts, Laws and Dialects. Washington DC doesn't have jurisdiction over many things. One of those is parental rights, including spanking. The constitution is above all governments, including DC. So when Americans talk about their customs, many variables are in play. Agricultural states might be allies, but belong to different regions. Big states like California and New York have common interests, though they are 3,000 miles apart. There are flyover states, red states, blue states, gulf states, bread-basket states, river states, border states, rust belt states, military states, bible belt states, public school corporal punishment states (19), etc. Then, there's Texas. She likes to stand alone. (nickname: the Lone Star State) That names a few. This is a complex country to govern or speak on behalf of.

I'm from an original colony, southern state, which is very traditional back to the founding. We have interests with the thirteen colonies, coastal states, red states, the bible belt, military states and medium-sized states, etc. Our dominant trait is the Southern regional culture.

Outside of the military, other regions aren't that imprinted with courtesy titles. (We also have a vast population of ex-military families all over the nation and all fifty states have federal military bases. They leave this imprint too, where people interact with them.) A family's elders are highly regarded. They're like no one else in a child's life. I don't think government and schools have as much influence over children here, as they do in other countries. Your family is a country of its own. Mom and Dad are President and First Lady. If they are the most important figures in your world and autonomously reign in their “state,” why wouldn't you give them utter respect. I'm no less important (actually more important) than the President of the US or the Governor of my State. They're ma’am or sir. In my corner of the world, I'm Ma’am. My family has lived here 300 years. Every matriarch is Ma’am and patriarch is Sir. It's a tradition. To our children, it’s as natural as breathing air. It's not respectful to answer me with Huh? or What? Those words are laden with potential attitude. Even Mom or Dad can be a whine.

We don't have to make those calls. There's no question, if I'm being respected or not. And, we're respected at all times. Think of it as a foreign language, if you must. In the South, we use courtesy titles. If you come here to live from somewhere else, they don't play well with strangers. They are offended by your children, who don't address them properly. Your kids might rub teachers the wrong way too. They won't correct you. They just don't befriend you. They'll all go home from the park, if your kids arrive. They don't want their kids exposed to bad behavior. Eskimos rub noses. Southerners require deference and respect to elders. Under the circumstances, back talk is unheard of, at least in theory. They lose it once in awhile like everyone else. But, it’s a rare thing. There's a steep price to pay for disrespectful behavior. Chivalry isn't dead in the South. They still defend their Lady's honor. Your mother is somebody's cherished wife. So watch out. Your father is master of his house, double watch out.

We went to the beach up North once. Three sisters with twelve kids, under 11. Our husbands were on business. (We don't vacation up North.) Our kids were having a great time. If they were called, they came in immediately, calling Ma’am. They followed directions. We weren't interrupted. They ate what we gave them and so on and so forth. All around us there was yelling, crying, kicking sand and total disrespect going on both ways. A mother got up, walked over and said, “How do you get your kids to act like that?” We couldn't help it. We laughed, but quickly recovered ourselves.

We'd seen the disrespect, and knew they weren't doing anything close to what they should be. My sister said, “See that conference room over there? All I need to do is put this cover up on and walk by that window. Three men will be here lickety-split. They don't care what's going on inside. They’re going find out who's giving their wives trouble, kids or whoever it is. If it's one of these kids, he's headed to the room for a spanking.” She says, “You spank your kids?” We all said, “Yes, ma’am.” She says, “I don't think that's right.” Another sister says, “Well, I don't have to wait to get sand kicked in my lemonade, to know. Just as soon as they drop the ma’am, I know I'm in trouble and I'm taking that walk. You asked us. We're happy over here, minding our own business. We're obliging you.” The woman walked off. Didn't even say thank you.

There are more non-spankers in the North. We laughed in the beginning, because we had already guessed what their problem was. We just don't have much bickering go on. We think courtesy titles are the reason. Our kids/teens aren't eye rolling, swearing, talking back or being sarcastic. It just doesn't fit. They're not angels. Occasionally, they drop the titles and head straightaway into defiance. But a majority of the time, life's very pleasant. I think I see where others might find it strange. In America we say: “It is what it is!”

[MelissaJean]

Some of that sounds so much like my stepmom, but not all of if

[Connor]

First, the information I'm sharing isn't necessarily my own belief or practice. I'm not advocating either. I was a consultant for Child Protection for over a decade. I have accumulated a lot of information about cultural practices in Southern states, where the Bible Belt is located. I've read cases on many of these questions and have reviewed the court decisions. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a training specialist, among other management functions.

The scope of some of my work was to develop policy that did not overreach parents’ legal rights to raise their children, as they see fit. (Just one of those is religious freedom, 1st amendment, Bill of Rights, US Constitution.) Then, to have a board approve that policy. Then, to build an ongoing training program for CPS workers and foster care sides. The objective wasn't to educate workers. University does that. I was hired for Risk Management to avoid litigation and settlement awards from parents suing agencies. I'm happy to respond to questions. But, I don't do machine-gun responses, spraying 25 words or less.

I believe I recognize, in Julie's post, the benchmarks of biblical discipline, as practiced by many evangelical Christians in the States. I have reviewed samples of tapes in the past of an American group lecturing in both, Denmark and the Netherlands. (Check utube, search, spanking kids) Julie lives in Denmark. My comments speak to the basis for the changes in protocol that she is experiencing.

While I'm confident in the policies in the US toward their practices, I’ve been surprised to find people from banned nations spank their children. My explanations address these groups teachings and it's lawful practice here. Anything they teach will have a scriptural basis to it and that will be cited. For question one, I have selected a couple of short highlights from real sermons. You can find many articles on Google regarding “cheerful obedience.” Question 2, also excerpt. I’ve enough personal and cultural experience to comment, as well as, respond to question three.

Dear Vikinggene,
I have some questions / points i would ask about and hope you don't mind.
A. what is " cheerful obedience " ?
B. People near you really beat babies of 13 months with whippy rods ??
C. How do you think that respect disappears without the use of the terms ' sir / ma'am ' - i don't understand that. And are not the use of mom / dad not the title to the fact of them being parents ?

Obey Quickly and Cheerfully (A)
Pastor Glenn Durham, Covenant Church
Excerpt:
“Our text reminds me of the four-year old standing in his high chair during dinner one evening, much to his parents’ chagrin. They tried the usual antics to make him sit: begging, reasoning about the dangers of standing in a chair, fussing, and eventually threatening punishment. But for some reason, this night, he would not comply. Exasperated, the mother reached over, grabbed the boy by the arm and drug him down into the sitting position. With great determination and defiance, he yelled, “I may be sitting down on the outside, but I’m still standing up on the inside!”

We learned soon after becoming parents that obedience is more than sitting down on the outside. It does what I ask, when I want it done, and with a good attitude; it is quick and cheerful. In the same way, God’s grace is evident in us when we obey without grumbling or complaining, but with joy. Paul issued that very challenge to the church in Philippi.”

[Read Philippians 2.12-18. Pray.]

Phillip Lancaster
The Mountain Retreat Center
Excerpt:
“True obedience is cheerful obedience. Here we get thoroughly into the matter of attitude. God is always more concerned with heart attitude than with outward actions, though both are important. The great error of the Pharisees was in thinking that God only cares about external conformity to His will. Jesus told them they looked great on the outside, like a beautiful tomb, but that inside they had the putrid stench of decay (Matt. 23:27). Their hearts were far from God, though they scrupulously fretted about being outwardly righteous. Jesus' most scathingly denunciations were reserved for those, who thought pleasing God was just a matter of externals, and who left their hearts out of their religion.

In announcing the curses He would visit on His people when they did not keep His covenant, the Lord said, "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, therefore you shall serve your enemies…" (Deut. 28:47,48). Sometimes God's people grudgingly obey on the outside, but their hearts are not in it. They see God's commands as burdensome and they chafe, even as they obey outwardly. God does not accept such behavior. He wants those, who serve Him with gladness.

Our children must not only conform their actions to the commands we give them, they must also do so with a cheerful spirit and without complaint. This does not mean they cannot seek clarification to be sure they understand what is expected, but their attitude must be right. They cannot be permitted to gripe, or to heave a big sigh of disgust, or to roll their eyes, or to scowl, or to shake their heads, or to walk away from us with body language that communicates disdain. Such behaviors clearly evidence an unsubmissive spirit even if accompanied by outward actions of conformity to the directions given. The rod should be used in such cases as surely as if the child had steadfastly refused to obey at all. To fail to discipline for inward as well as for outward rebellion is to assure that the heart will remain unyielding.”

On the face of it, this belief seems close to what most parents expect, a good attitude. But, I've seen situations here, where the parents’ idea of cheerful was excessive. In any case, this is a high bar in the communities that embrace it. It is lawful here, unless evidence proves the parent is too overbearing. Evidence of that nature, usually comes from witnesses and is very subjective. Don't expect convictions in the Bible Belt.

What Ages to Spank (B)
Phillip Lancaster
The Mountain Retreat
Excerpt:
“NEVER TOO YOUNG, OR OLD: For what age child is discipline with the rod appropriate? The simple answer is, at whatever age he evidences foolish (rebellious) behavior. There is no age too young nor too old. Now practically, when a child is very young, it may be hard to discern when a certain behavior is a lack of submission. Nor does it seem appropriate to take a nine month old across your lap and whale away on his naked legs with a rod. On the other hand, there are times when it is clear that the infant is not getting what he wants, so he screams in protest. This is a form of revolt that should be nipped in the proverbial bud. A moderate stroke or two to the legs with a firm, No, seems proportional to the offense. Those who wait until a child is two or three to start spanking are definitely waiting too long. The child's will evidences itself well before that and ought to be dealt with at its earliest manifestations. The word "promptly" in Proverbs 13:24 may best be translated "early," which would give this rendering: "He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who love him disciplines him early." It's never too early for loving chastisement.

Nor is it ever too late. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that once a child grows to a certain age or size he is immune to this form of punishment. Proverbs makes no such distinctions. The fool of any age deserves stripes on his back for his willful disobedience (19:29). This might even be an appropriate form of discipline for the civil government to use against fools who disturb the peace and order of the community. But certainly it is always appropriate within the family. Of course there is a serious problem if a 16 year old does something that marks him a fool, thus calling for the rod. If the punishment has been used consistently through the years, it is hard to imagine it would still be necessary at that age. If it has not been consistently used, it may not be effective once the child is that old. We are reminded of Eli's sons with whom we began this study. They needed restraint, but how do you restrain someone who is grown and who still has foolishness bound up in this heart? Once again we come to the conclusion that it is absolutely vital to begin the process early and thus avoid the prospect of trying to tame the will of an almost-grown child.”

I would say this is common practice by age 13 months. Any rod at this age would be very thin and no more than one or two strokes would be delivered. However, what I witness doesn't completely conform to this. Most parents are using redirection and may resort to, what we call warning swats* with no rod. So, real spanking age varies from 18-30 months, depending on the child’s nature. Also, many parents never use a rod. That is prevalent in Biblical Discipline (BD). Nine months and up, it is lawful to use an appropriate rod, as long as the number of strokes is limited and no lasting mark is left. It wouldn't be characterized as “a beating.” Keep in mind, caring parents are administering these, just the same way others spank at later ages. It's milder and meant to respond to a child, who has its own will. Abusers will beat a child at any age.

Personally, I've seen children learn through this strategy. But, it's not my cup of tea. I think infants are easy to control by just picking them up. You certainly can't leave one on it's own. So you're always there to intervene.

(*All terms other than corporal punishment/discipline have little legal meaning. There must be fifty words for CP in the U.S. So I'm defining local usage. Southerners have a dozen words for spanking. I'm sticking with this site's word. Swats, slaps, licks and stripes are the most commonly used words for spanks in this region. Warning swats are delivered to the side of the thigh, below the hip joint. Warning swats are Mommy stuff. Where I live, there's a preference that men take the responsibility for spanking, especially older kids or boys. Moms and Dads train them up with swats. At spanking age: Mom swats, Dad spanks. Once kids reach an age, when punishment can be delayed, Dad spanks and Mom pretty much stops (although, she's always got thigh swats in her tool kit.) Spanking tends to be for serious misbehavior. So time out is a good tool for routine keeping the day moving along with younger children. The big stuff with older kids, they like both parents for that discussion, with Dad putting closure on the chapter, if the outcome means a spanking. Single Moms try to have a male relative in the wings.)

Respect ©
In discussing the American way of life, keep in mind, how vast we are. Our regions differ quite a bit in culture. Probably the most pronounced is the Old Confederacy, the South. They don't assimilate outsiders as quickly. Second generations adopt the culture. To put it into context: if you put Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom into a map of the USA, there would be another 38 States remaining. Each of the 50 states has its own Governor, Congress, Militia, Schools, Courts, Laws and Dialects. Washington DC doesn't have jurisdiction over many things. One of those is parental rights, including spanking. The constitution is above all governments, including DC. So when Americans talk about their customs, many variables are in play. Agricultural states might be allies, but belong to different regions. Big states like California and New York have common interests, though they are 3,000 miles apart. There are flyover states, red states, blue states, gulf states, bread-basket states, river states, border states, rust belt states, military states, bible belt states, public school corporal punishment states (19), etc. Then, there's Texas. She likes to stand alone. (nickname: the Lone Star State) That names a few. This is a complex country to govern or speak on behalf of.

I'm from an original colony, southern state, which is very traditional back to the founding. We have interests with the thirteen colonies, coastal states, red states, the bible belt, military states and medium-sized states, etc. Our dominant trait is the Southern regional culture.

Outside of the military, other regions aren't that imprinted with courtesy titles. (We also have a vast population of ex-military families all over the nation and all fifty states have federal military bases. They leave this imprint too, where people interact with them.) A family's elders are highly regarded. They're like no one else in a child's life. I don't think government and schools have as much influence over children here, as they do in other countries. Your family is a country of its own. Mom and Dad are President and First Lady. If they are the most important figures in your world and autonomously reign in their “state,” why wouldn't you give them utter respect. I'm no less important (actually more important) than the President of the US or the Governor of my State. They're ma’am or sir. In my corner of the world, I'm Ma’am. My family has lived here 300 years. Every matriarch is Ma’am and patriarch is Sir. It's a tradition. To our children, it’s as natural as breathing air. It's not respectful to answer me with Huh? or What? Those words are laden with potential attitude. Even Mom or Dad can be a whine.

We don't have to make those calls. There's no question, if I'm being respected or not. And, we're respected at all times. Think of it as a foreign language, if you must. In the South, we use courtesy titles. If you come here to live from somewhere else, they don't play well with strangers. They are offended by your children, who don't address them properly. Your kids might rub teachers the wrong way too. They won't correct you. They just don't befriend you. They'll all go home from the park, if your kids arrive. They don't want their kids exposed to bad behavior. Eskimos rub noses. Southerners require deference and respect to elders. Under the circumstances, back talk is unheard of, at least in theory. They lose it once in awhile like everyone else. But, it’s a rare thing. There's a steep price to pay for disrespectful behavior. Chivalry isn't dead in the South. They still defend their Lady's honor. Your mother is somebody's cherished wife. So watch out. Your father is master of his house, double watch out.

We went to the beach up North once. Three sisters with twelve kids, under 11. Our husbands were on business. (We don't vacation up North.) Our kids were having a great time. If they were called, they came in immediately, calling Ma’am. They followed directions. We weren't interrupted. They ate what we gave them and so on and so forth. All around us there was yelling, crying, kicking sand and total disrespect going on both ways. A mother got up, walked over and said, “How do you get your kids to act like that?” We couldn't help it. We laughed, but quickly recovered ourselves.

We'd seen the disrespect, and knew they weren't doing anything close to what they should be. My sister said, “See that conference room over there? All I need to do is put this cover up on and walk by that window. Three men will be here lickety-split. They don't care what's going on inside. They’re going find out who's giving their wives trouble, kids or whoever it is. If it's one of these kids, he's headed to the room for a spanking.” She says, “You spank your kids?” We all said, “Yes, ma’am.” She says, “I don't think that's right.” Another sister says, “Well, I don't have to wait to get sand kicked in my lemonade, to know. Just as soon as they drop the ma’am, I know I'm in trouble and I'm taking that walk. You asked us. We're happy over here, minding our own business. We're obliging you.” The woman walked off. Didn't even say thank you.

There are more non-spankers in the North. We laughed in the beginning, because we had already guessed what their problem was. We just don't have much bickering go on. We think courtesy titles are the reason. Our kids/teens aren't eye rolling, swearing, talking back or being sarcastic. It just doesn't fit. They're not angels. Occasionally, they drop the titles and head straightaway into defiance. But a majority of the time, life's very pleasant. I think I see where others might find it strange. In America we say: “It is what it is!”

Please remind me never to go there

I always used to wonder why my dad often says that Americans are all crazy. Now I have a much better idea lol

[MelissaJean]

Hey!!!!!

[Connor]

Hey!!!!!

Sorry! But that just doesn't even seem the real world to me! And I definitely don't plan to go there because by the sound of that I would't last very long lol!

If I come across as bad in my own world where people just don't act like that, I think people would think I was completely evil there lol

[Garth]

I commend any parent who wishes to improve their parenting skills. Parenting is not an easy job. To be open to new ideas and to be self critical in a non judgemental way, is the beginning of setting the kind of example you want for your children.

[MelissaJean]

Hey!!!!!

Sorry! But that just doesn't even seem the real world to me! And I definitely don't plan to go there because by the sound of that I would't last very long lol!

If I come across as bad in my own world where people just don't act like that, I think people would think I was completely evil there lol

That's only one part of America and not even everybody there!!!!

[MelissaJean]

I'm a kid, I'm from the north, but I probably shouldn't say where, right?

Anyway my stepmom Samantha believes in the cheerful obedience thing, like, totally and it's awful but a don't have like to call her ma'am always but we are supposed to treat adults with respect but I'm not sure if matters if I say ma'am or sir or Mr or Ms or whatever but that I'm polite or whatever

[Vikinggene]

I'm sure many Americans have different experiences. That's why its difficult to speak of our customs. I will say not all of my post is anecdotal. I have a decade of studies and CPS surveys under my belt. It is simple to find in national reports that Northerners spank at 42% and Southerners at 67%. I tried to be clear that I was speaking of a specific area. Jess, one thing I've notice is you have lived in quite a few places. Where I live 250 families still live in their 1776 homes. It's a very traditional society. And, while it's more formal than some, it's certainly not out of step with the rest of the South.

If you're raised in the South, you must know they tend to be gracious. They avoid people versus confronting. They do ignore and stand off from people who offend their sensibilities. One can read any book of them and learn this. There's also difference between the rural and urban scene. A rural example, when describing a couple at church, "You know, the new couple, that sit behind the Smiths. The ones that came about twenty years back." Subscribe to any blog, you'll find the culture is still prominent. I do not have family all over the country and that doesn't bother me. They don't leave the South. They're not alone. Many Southerners don't leave home.

When I spoke of Christians, I'm trying to describe those that may be advising Julie's mother.(the topic of this thread). I hoped I was clear on that, but if not I'll say it again. There are sects in the Bible Belt, who adhere to literal biblical practices. They have prescribed rules regarding physical discipline. I personally do not ascribe too much of it, but follow mine and my husband's family traditions. I don't criticize it either. I stand by my analysis of their way of life. Google has a plethora of information from them. They are no small number in the South and most are evangelistic and export their beliefs all over the world.

Some of their practices have been under scrutiny by CPS, and in my work I have read many cases regarding their way of doing things. In most circumstances, Workers are unable to intervene unless bruises are left. I left out some of the more extreme sects' practices, who still pass lawful muster. I've seen none of their philosophy on here and won't bring it up under pages children can read. I'll be glad to discuss with adults on their page, if requested.

The South continues to keep its culture. Check out Facebook. There were two pages set up. I'm Proud to be a Southerner and I'm Proud to be a Northerner. The Southern page had over 100,000 in a few days. After weeks, the Northern page was less than ten thousand. I'm sure Northerners and other region's citizens are all proud of their home or heritage. But, they don't seem to care about it in the same way or express any loyalty. It's also interesting that other regions didn't have a competition. IMO, that's because there's still tension from the Civil War. There are many books that discuss this as well.

I have spent time in the North. My work had me travelling. We even kept an apartment in Queens for a few years, as we stayed there twice a month. It was dirty and difficult to get around. People weren't gracious in every day life on the streets. I did find one on one people were friendly, but more outspoken and less sensitive. We respected each other. Few treated us as graciously as our southern associates and cities, or the West for that matter. I have not had the pleasure to travel in Wisconsin, but my Great grandmother was born there, went to the Dakotas and came back to the East. The only thing she passed on. It's too cold and we have distant cousins there. The fast pace we observed in the North doesn't lend itself to the respite of a vacation. But, we do make trips to significant American historical sites there, we teach our children to observe the American character as one people. This place is too vast to stir every pot. We're settled on our culture.

I think it's difficult to follow trends, and statistics when you're busy raising families. My work over forty years has been to analyze such things. I've lectured at both the Bush and Johnson Schools of Government. Analysis does end up in numbers and types. Trying to validate that things exist and how they are handled or mishandled by society isn't advocating or embracing systemic beliefs. I find it hard to separate myself from my nature to assess things and report. Hopefully I add a perspective that is just another resource or opinion. Not every client takes our advice. Certainly every family develops its own culture. I'm not concerned about harsh. This forum has excellent members, who aren't afraid to speak their minds and remain clear that they respect differences. Perhaps I was too subtle about the analysis side of my post.

[Mina]

hi as many here know my parents are chirstians and they ofcause want raise me and my siblings up acording to the bible so far hand and a small paddle has been used for spanking us when needed but now mom has begun to be a part of a new parenting group in the church because she is the one that take care all discipline after what had happen

so the other day mom has been to a group meeting and came home gather us in the living room and told and that from now on she would not be using hand anymore to spank but only implements or rods as they call them in her group and she took out 3 rubber spatula one for every one of us and told that it has to stay in our room for when she need them for spanking and for serious things she told us it would still be paddle that are used and from now on every spanking will be on the bare bottom.

so guess from now on its about being on the best behaviour but my sister has already tried the spatula because she did not clean her room and from her crying I assume it hurts than hand


dont know what other parents think about this and or other kids for that sake

My parents uses a spoon or brush, im really sorry its come to this but i have to say Your mum is probably doing the right thing.