06-22-2016, 06:30 AM
I've been hesitant to say anything, but since Jess broke the ice...
Yes, there are trends, but one has to be careful not to verge into stereotypes. For example, my wife and I grew up in California (to most Southerners, southern California at the time was a den of iniquity, hippies, drugs, crime, and everything else) -- yet her family, and many others were just as strict, if not stricter than anything I've heard about on this board. Mine no doubt would have been too had tragedy not happened.
Having lived in Alabama (deep, deep South) and now Virginia, as well as two countries in Europe, there are nice people everywhere, and not so nice people everywhere. Yes, I think people in the South have ostensibly better manners at a surface level, yet (and I think most surveys hold this out), institutional racism is more ingrained in "Southern culture" than in any other in the United States. My point here is not to accuse anybody of anything, but just that every sub-culture has its good and its bad and certainly doesn't apply to everybody. People in the south do tend to be more "proud" of where they're from than others and feel "different" or "special" but they have as many institutional and structural problems as anywhere else...
Significant emigration from other parts of the States, as well as (less than the Donald would have you believe) from outside the States to major urban centers in the South, particularly Atlanta, is starting to change that narrative, but the "rural South" is still very proud of its heritage, including Gods and guns (not saying that's wrong), and they tend to vote that way. Unfortunately, for some (maybe a majority, probably not) it also includes the Confederacy, and extreme limited government. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, I'm a very strong Republican, but southern States tend to focus more on the "culture wars" and resistance to change (for instance, on gay marriage, for example, or transgender bathrooms), and have weak social safety nets for those less well off in their societies. There's a trade-off to all these things; none is better than the other, but to think the South is automatically some Arcadia, well, that's just not the case, and I've lived it, breathed it, and sweltered in it.
Frankly, having lived in all these places, I'm more convinced than ever that people turn out how their family raise them, and some times even the best efforts of a family can't stop a "bad kid" from turning out that way, but to say one culture, religion, or any other sub-culture has an advantage in turning out "good kids" is a bit too strong, in my opinion.
We're not religious. I really don't care if anybody else is. But it has no effect on the fact that my kids are consistently among the best behaved in their school. And I've addressed this before, but can we please dispense of the trope that military families automatically have better behaved kids than others? I've been in for over 20 years and know generals with disasters of families, and poor relationships with their kids -- and just as many with good relationships. The volunteer military is just as representative of broader society as any other organization of its size.
And for the record, I don't require or expect my kids to call me sir, or their mom ma'am, and you know what? They're just fine. If it works for you, great, but let's not pretend it's the panacea to good behavior and key to making good moral and ethical choices.
B/r,
Robert
Yes, there are trends, but one has to be careful not to verge into stereotypes. For example, my wife and I grew up in California (to most Southerners, southern California at the time was a den of iniquity, hippies, drugs, crime, and everything else) -- yet her family, and many others were just as strict, if not stricter than anything I've heard about on this board. Mine no doubt would have been too had tragedy not happened.
Having lived in Alabama (deep, deep South) and now Virginia, as well as two countries in Europe, there are nice people everywhere, and not so nice people everywhere. Yes, I think people in the South have ostensibly better manners at a surface level, yet (and I think most surveys hold this out), institutional racism is more ingrained in "Southern culture" than in any other in the United States. My point here is not to accuse anybody of anything, but just that every sub-culture has its good and its bad and certainly doesn't apply to everybody. People in the south do tend to be more "proud" of where they're from than others and feel "different" or "special" but they have as many institutional and structural problems as anywhere else...
Significant emigration from other parts of the States, as well as (less than the Donald would have you believe) from outside the States to major urban centers in the South, particularly Atlanta, is starting to change that narrative, but the "rural South" is still very proud of its heritage, including Gods and guns (not saying that's wrong), and they tend to vote that way. Unfortunately, for some (maybe a majority, probably not) it also includes the Confederacy, and extreme limited government. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, I'm a very strong Republican, but southern States tend to focus more on the "culture wars" and resistance to change (for instance, on gay marriage, for example, or transgender bathrooms), and have weak social safety nets for those less well off in their societies. There's a trade-off to all these things; none is better than the other, but to think the South is automatically some Arcadia, well, that's just not the case, and I've lived it, breathed it, and sweltered in it.
Frankly, having lived in all these places, I'm more convinced than ever that people turn out how their family raise them, and some times even the best efforts of a family can't stop a "bad kid" from turning out that way, but to say one culture, religion, or any other sub-culture has an advantage in turning out "good kids" is a bit too strong, in my opinion.
We're not religious. I really don't care if anybody else is. But it has no effect on the fact that my kids are consistently among the best behaved in their school. And I've addressed this before, but can we please dispense of the trope that military families automatically have better behaved kids than others? I've been in for over 20 years and know generals with disasters of families, and poor relationships with their kids -- and just as many with good relationships. The volunteer military is just as representative of broader society as any other organization of its size.
And for the record, I don't require or expect my kids to call me sir, or their mom ma'am, and you know what? They're just fine. If it works for you, great, but let's not pretend it's the panacea to good behavior and key to making good moral and ethical choices.
B/r,
Robert
(06-21-2016, 11:13 PM)Jess Wrote: Vikinggene,
I haven't had time to respond to this post nor do I have a lot of time right now yet either, but I will say a few things at least ...
I have A LOT of family and friends all over the country (in Virginia [where I have lived], Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi [where I have lived], Florida, Texas [where I have lived], California and Minnesota to name a few of the major ones) and I am from Wisconsin (born and raised) so I know A LOT of family and friends here too, and not one of them follow what you say is "American", "Southern", or "Northern". In fact, I have never met anyone who lives/parents the way you do. I am from the North and what you said about people from the North was both VERY wrong and also very offensive, as well to stereotyping.
Here are just a few examples of your incorrect assumptions and generalizations...
"In the South, we use courtesy titles." This is not just a Southern thing, MANY people do this in the North as well.
"Southerners require deference and respect to elders." Again, MANY Northerns do this as well, and while I do not require my children to call us Sir/Ma'am all the time, I still demand respect as well as pretty much every other family I know around here and other places I have been. My children will say yes Sir/no Ma'am when we are lecturing them or give direct orders, and they also address strangers as Sir/Ma'am/Mr./Mrs/Miss unless otherwise told as well. This is not just a Southern thing, so please don't assume it is.
"Chivalry isn't dead in the South." Nor is it in the North. I have expereinced chivalry all over in the North and I raise my children with it, and I have expereinced plenty of non-chivalrous people in the South as well.
"We went to the beach up North once. " Are you basing your entire assumption of the North based on visiting ONE time?
"They followed directions. We weren't interrupted. They ate what we gave them and so on and so forth. All around us there was yelling, crying, kicking sand and total disrespect going on both ways." My kids are very well behaved kids and very respectful. They know better than to yell, scream, kick sand or disrespect us or others, and I don't appreciate you lumping this one experience to people from the North, especially since I have experienced the same thing too many times to count all over in the South as well. That is not a Southern thing, it is just a personal family thing in how individuals choose to raise their kids. Kids misbehaving can happen anywhere, just as kids being respectful can.
"There are more non-spankers in the North." While, there may be more Southern states that still spank in school, I would not go as far as saying there are more non-spankers in the North. In fact, most of my friends in Virginia and Florida were very much non-spankers and most of my friends in Wisconsin and Minnesota are spankers. I just think we don't talk about it as much. Also, I think as a whole, our nation is becoming more anti-spanking everywhere. Again, there are spankers and non-spankers everywhere and it is a personal parenting choice, not a regional thing.
"Our kids/teens aren't eye rolling, swearing, talking back or being sarcastic." And neither are mine (besides the occasional slip-up), yet I am from the North.
There are so many other things that I could quote and contest about the way you describe Christians as well. I don't speak in terms of what all Christians do, what Americans do or even what other Wisconsinites do on the forum. I speak about what WE do in OUR family. I would encourage you and ask you to do the same please.
I fear this will probably come off much more harsh than I intend it to, so I hope it doesn't. I only used bold to differentiate between your quotes and what I am saying about them, and my all caps is about emphasis not yelling. I think you can contribute (and have) a lot to this forum in areas of how YOUR family works and I appreciate you sharing that with us and genuinely hope you to continue to do so. However, please do not generalize or describe what the rest of the country or even the South does, and certainly refrain from passing judgment to the North or other areas please.