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mom has started in a parenting group in church
#21
I've been hesitant to say anything, but since Jess broke the ice...

Yes, there are trends, but one has to be careful not to verge into stereotypes. For example, my wife and I grew up in California (to most Southerners, southern California at the time was a den of iniquity, hippies, drugs, crime, and everything else) -- yet her family, and many others were just as strict, if not stricter than anything I've heard about on this board. Mine no doubt would have been too had tragedy not happened.

Having lived in Alabama (deep, deep South) and now Virginia, as well as two countries in Europe, there are nice people everywhere, and not so nice people everywhere. Yes, I think people in the South have ostensibly better manners at a surface level, yet (and I think most surveys hold this out), institutional racism is more ingrained in "Southern culture" than in any other in the United States. My point here is not to accuse anybody of anything, but just that every sub-culture has its good and its bad and certainly doesn't apply to everybody. People in the south do tend to be more "proud" of where they're from than others and feel "different" or "special" but they have as many institutional and structural problems as anywhere else...

Significant emigration from other parts of the States, as well as (less than the Donald would have you believe) from outside the States to major urban centers in the South, particularly Atlanta, is starting to change that narrative, but the "rural South" is still very proud of its heritage, including Gods and guns (not saying that's wrong), and they tend to vote that way. Unfortunately, for some (maybe a majority, probably not) it also includes the Confederacy, and extreme limited government. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, I'm a very strong Republican, but southern States tend to focus more on the "culture wars" and resistance to change (for instance, on gay marriage, for example, or transgender bathrooms), and have weak social safety nets for those less well off in their societies. There's a trade-off to all these things; none is better than the other, but to think the South is automatically some Arcadia, well, that's just not the case, and I've lived it, breathed it, and sweltered in it.

Frankly, having lived in all these places, I'm more convinced than ever that people turn out how their family raise them, and some times even the best efforts of a family can't stop a "bad kid" from turning out that way, but to say one culture, religion, or any other sub-culture has an advantage in turning out "good kids" is a bit too strong, in my opinion.

We're not religious. I really don't care if anybody else is. But it has no effect on the fact that my kids are consistently among the best behaved in their school. And I've addressed this before, but can we please dispense of the trope that military families automatically have better behaved kids than others? I've been in for over 20 years and know generals with disasters of families, and poor relationships with their kids -- and just as many with good relationships. The volunteer military is just as representative of broader society as any other organization of its size.

And for the record, I don't require or expect my kids to call me sir, or their mom ma'am, and you know what? They're just fine. If it works for you, great, but let's not pretend it's the panacea to good behavior and key to making good moral and ethical choices.

B/r,

Robert


(06-21-2016, 11:13 PM)Jess Wrote: Vikinggene,

I haven't had time to respond to this post nor do I have a lot of time right now yet either, but I will say a few things at least ...

I have A LOT of family and friends all over the country (in Virginia [where I have lived], Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi [where I have lived], Florida, Texas [where I have lived], California and Minnesota to name a few of the major ones) and I am from Wisconsin (born and raised) so I know A LOT of family and friends here too, and not one of them follow what you say is "American", "Southern", or "Northern". In fact, I have never met anyone who lives/parents the way you do. I am from the North and what you said about people from the North was both VERY wrong and also very offensive, as well to stereotyping.

Here are just a few examples of your incorrect assumptions and generalizations...

"In the South, we use courtesy titles." This is not just a Southern thing, MANY people do this in the North as well.

"Southerners require deference and respect to elders." Again, MANY Northerns do this as well, and while I do not require my children to call us Sir/Ma'am all the time, I still demand respect as well as pretty much every other family I know around here and other places I have been. My children will say yes Sir/no Ma'am when we are lecturing them or give direct orders, and they also address strangers as Sir/Ma'am/Mr./Mrs/Miss unless otherwise told as well. This is not just a Southern thing, so please don't assume it is.

"Chivalry isn't dead in the South." Nor is it in the North. I have expereinced chivalry all over in the North and I raise my children with it, and I have expereinced plenty of non-chivalrous people in the South as well.

"We went to the beach up North once. " Are you basing your entire assumption of the North based on visiting ONE time?

"They followed directions. We weren't interrupted. They ate what we gave them and so on and so forth. All around us there was yelling, crying, kicking sand and total disrespect going on both ways." My kids are very well behaved kids and very respectful. They know better than to yell, scream, kick sand or disrespect us or others, and I don't appreciate you lumping this one experience to people from the North, especially since I have experienced the same thing too many times to count all over in the South as well. That is not a Southern thing, it is just a personal family thing in how individuals choose to raise their kids. Kids misbehaving can happen anywhere, just as kids being respectful can.

"There are more non-spankers in the North." While, there may be more Southern states that still spank in school, I would not go as far as saying there are more non-spankers in the North. In fact, most of my friends in Virginia and Florida were very much non-spankers and most of my friends in Wisconsin and Minnesota are spankers. I just think we don't talk about it as much. Also, I think as a whole, our nation is becoming more anti-spanking everywhere. Again, there are spankers and non-spankers everywhere and it is a personal parenting choice, not a regional thing.

"Our kids/teens aren't eye rolling, swearing, talking back or being sarcastic." And neither are mine (besides the occasional slip-up), yet I am from the North.

There are so many other things that I could quote and contest about the way you describe Christians as well. I don't speak in terms of what all Christians do, what Americans do or even what other Wisconsinites do on the forum. I speak about what WE do in OUR family. I would encourage you and ask you to do the same please.

I fear this will probably come off much more harsh than I intend it to, so I hope it doesn't. I only used bold to differentiate between your quotes and what I am saying about them, and my all caps is about emphasis not yelling. I think you can contribute (and have) a lot to this forum in areas of how YOUR family works and I appreciate you sharing that with us and genuinely hope you to continue to do so. Smile However, please do not generalize or describe what the rest of the country or even the South does, and certainly refrain from passing judgment to the North or other areas please.
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#22
I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but I really don't prefer being called sir. Mr. sits a little better, but is still ackward for me. I'm not sure why, but I much prefer to be called by my first name.

I would never force kids ( if I ever have them ) to say sir / ma'am; I feel it should be a personal choice. Micromanaging can lead to more stress. Back when one CSM was at work, the rest of my cashiers would be glad when I was the one on duty because the other CSM micromanaged way too much.
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#23
I'm with you Mark. I preferred to be called by my first name at work by both the parents and kids. One place I worked however insisted I be called by Mr..
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#24
I would like to point out this thread began by responding to Julie about a group at her church advising her mother. Her mother had changed the protocol of spanking in her home. She wanted to know what people thought of it. I responded that I had knowledge of such a group that are evangelists in Denmark. They are Biblical Southerners. I explained I'd run across them in my work. And, explained what I knew about them. Because, what she related appeared to come from right out of their book.

Then, I did speak of my own family. (BTW, my family numbers 157 in our direct line and many more with allied families.) This was followed by three questions, which I attempted to answer. Everyone has opinions. However, my family has lived here for three hundred years, like many other Southerners. Our homes and barns have been burnt to the ground, livestock slaughtered and crops burned. I still tend the flowers around the foundation of our burned house. No one had the heart to rebuild it. We have a NEW one from 1873. We nearly starved to death. People moving through and living on or near bases and in urban areas, I doubt have been assimilated to the extent to see the real South.

It certainly is arrogant. Their pride comes from survival together. There is a lot of code that outsiders don't recognize. They can be cruel, smiling right at you, and you don't even know it happened. This behavior began during Reconstruction, after the Civil War. They had to sign allegiance pledges. There were still guerillas about. The Union was an occupying army.

They were not really loyal. They were forced to be. In order to get out of martial law, they gave surface respect. They wanted the Union out and to isolate themselves. To avoid any question of their compliance with the USA, they developed double talk. They sound friendly. But, what you hear and what the Southerner hears in the same sentence are two different things. They are really good at it.

Overall, it's very rude. But, they don't care, because they grew up thinking the North invaded their home and killed 600,000 civilians. 25% of the USA population died in that war. I'm being honest. They'd hate me for sharing this. I never said the South is a Utopia. I think I said the opposite. It's a festering wound, in my opinion. I think when we begin to talk about it, maybe it will get better.

I did not claim military kids are well behaved. I don't know any, even though they're about. (other than our own, who don't travel with the parent.) I said, where people interact with the military, there is an "imprint" of their protocol. Also, maybe you're only one generation of the military. There are millions of older veterans that are old school. Many started families their way. Lots of them retire here.

I think the rural South is mostly great for Southerners. My family is very happy, because we're totally accepted and our culture is strong and uniform. We believe our kids are easier to manage using couresy titles is what I think I said. Our lives are harmonious and pleasant. Our local schools complain about children, who don't use courtesy titles, so I don't know about where yours went.

My sister taught in Norfolk, Va for many years. It's considered a metropolis and not Southern at all. Atlanta is considered an international city, as is Charlotte. My sister had about a 75% military turnover in her classes every year. Generally, military families are not here long enough to get into this. Southerners don't like D.C., and it takes years to be accepted in the rural south.

My mother can tell me first hand stories of the War, from her grandfather. I don't think people understand how fresh the war is in our minds. Or have yet learned of the atrocities that took place. Nobody listens to us. When everybody, who remembers, has been long dead, maybe the truth will come out.

Until then, it's an unhealed wound. Until then, they will continue to use stereotypes to identify the "others", whom they still distrust. They will speak in code. I talk about it, because I believe it's the only way to get over it. I think beneath suspicion and hate, usually there's fear. I struggle with it always. I'd hope my kids don't have it. But, they do.

I read somewhere, they think underlying fear and anxiety of Mothers, in this case, is passed to the infants. When we stop being afraid, maybe that generation will no longer be Southern, as we know it today. But, for now mothers still want the gun hidden in their skirt, praying to God, that a stranger won't appear, just like 1861. Backyards hold those strangers, buried by the women and children. Because, their men were away at war, and looters were free range. Guns and God were all they had.
Mrs. V
Grandmother/Caregiver of 8 -6 at home, 2 boys: Nicolaas15 & Gabe 5; 4 girls: Lisbeth 15, Natalie 14, Lizzie 10 & Ashleigh 8 - 2 girls away from home 22 & 17 (2 adult sons and 1 adult daughter, all single parents)
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#25
Maybe this should be a different thread, but do any of the parents here do cheerful obedience on their kids?
MELISSA
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#26
I just want to weigh in to back Jess on this. While I disagree with a lot of VikingGene's post, I think we should all just focus on our own families and not make broad generalizations about anything.

My most significant concern is that VikingGene's posts sometimes come off almost as lectures about American government, demographics, what have you, and given the high percentage of European and Australian visitors here, I think they've susceptible to receiving an inaccurate picture of life in the United States, particularly on the subject matter of the message board.

I have two degrees in International Relations and two in Political Science, so I've taken personal issue with a number of things VikingGene (and from time to time, others) have said in their descriptions of how things work in this country, and sometimes in others. I've been to 40+ countries, so my views are broad and wide, along with my natural propensity to question conventional wisdom.

This isn't a political board and I don't want to be responsible for a shift in that direction, but while I could point out that a skewed view of federalism has been presented, the South has been oversold, the demographic and educational realities of the South are highly suspect, and let's not even start a discussion about the reason why those (admittedly horrible) atrocities happened in the South during the Civil War, or that the "limited" federal government had to desegregate the South in the 1960's....I won't. I think a couple subtle potshots were taken at Jess and I about our personal experiences and questioning whether we really "know" that of which we speak, but let's avoid all this and just focus on the subject matter at hand and not act like know-it-alls (myself included).

When people tell me that Congress is more dysfunctional than it's ever been or our government is completely screwed up (admittedly The Donald is pressing the point..), I remind them of two things: 1) Madison designed a federal system that was supposed to react slowly and allow for slow, incremental change; and 2) there used to be duels on the Floor of the House of Representatives and heck, we had a Civil War, so things aren't really THAT bad. Could they be better? Sure. But a far cry from the worst they've ever been.

So let's focus on what's important -- our kids and families and leave the cultural, geographic, demographic, and any other connotation out of it.

B/r,

Robert



(06-22-2016, 08:28 PM)Jess Wrote: We will agree to disagree on a lot of that, but that is perfectly okay. Tongue

Again, I think you have contributed to this forum and I hope you continue to do so, and I appreciate what you share about your family. I understand the reasons why you mentioned a lot of what you said for this post and while I didn't agree with a lot, I was still okay with what you posted for the most part. I only jumped in because of what you specifically said about the North and how you stereotyped them in a bad way, such as suggesting that don't know how to raise well-behaved kids, which I found offensive and pointed out. I am just asking that you, and all of us on the forum, refrain from speaking negatively about other areas/cultures and stick to talking just about our own personal family beliefs, values and practices. Thanks. Smile
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#27
Sven,

I think "really weird" fits the bill most of the time Smile

(06-23-2016, 02:43 AM)Sven Wrote:
(06-22-2016, 09:18 PM)Robert L2 Wrote: My most significant concern is that VikingGene's posts sometimes come off almost as lectures about American government, demographics, what have you, and given the high percentage of European and Australian visitors here, I think they've susceptible to receiving an inaccurate picture of life in the United States, particularly on the subject matter of the message board.

Don't worry, Mr Robert, us Europeans think America is either top of the bill or really weird anyway. Tongue Nothing we read here is gonna change that, I guess. Big Grin
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#28
I can see your point, Robert. I try to give backstory to explain our feelings and values. I still think book learning doesn't compare to the lived experiences. There are plenty of historical accounts that are ignored. I believe the victors write the history. A General's aide in my family has the largest body of personal letters home known from the War. They were written in old German. Copies were donated to Marquette University, near where my great-grandmother was born, because they helped translate them. I'll keep our pain to ourselves, the way we have for 155 years, though this era has a dramatic effect on OUR family.

Personally if Australians or the British gave me personal accounts of their culture and traditions, I would consider it invaluable insight into their values. I will agree to disagree that there is anyway to present Americans as a holistic people to the rest of the world. There's no generic American. Read the recently released Fly Over States. It should be a good read to keep you abreast of today's gridlock issues. You'll likely see both of our views analyzed. I have worked in the Beltway myself. The people I know that have International political background have very little interest in domestic affairs.

I was evaluated by the University of Virginia and Richmond and told my body of experience was so strong that they didn't recommend that I continue my graduate studies. My accomplishments were beyond their PhD level. Unless I wanted a piece of paper, the time spent on the studies would be counterproductive to my ongoing work in the field. Having retired and after years of formal writing, I'm currently authoring three different novels. So our family aren't uneducated, reactionary people. We have come to believe it's time for the South go about healing and stop the denial.

I'm impressed that after all your global exposure that you advocate spanking. That is a sign that you're not easily swayed by hype.

I have a cousin, who wrote two books in the Naval Library, developed at a research center near the Marine War College. He worked with President Carter on a carrier, for which he managed programming eleven million functions. I've served in appointments by the Governor of Virginia, and fourteen General Assembly Task forces. This generation, my father and two other sisters also served Governors. My sister has testified before Congress. We've worked for Senators, Congressmen, Casper Weinberger, Project Hope, writing legislation, policy, holding public hearings, training public boards, etc. We're certainly are not naive about how things work. Educated people can have opposing views.

One out of four people, where l live works for the government. I know that I probably have a bend toward what may be perceived as political. This hasn't been issue in other forums. Very little in my world is not about politics. Apparently, it's more restricted here. I can respect that. I'll try to slice and dice my comments better, especially in the young people's area. The youth here are refreshing and very bright. In the future I will respond to adults, who have direct questions, that I feel deserve background, to correspond privately, regardless of their country of origin. Angel

Jess, I appreciate your comments about any positive contributions I make. I'll continue to try for that. Smile
Mrs. V
Grandmother/Caregiver of 8 -6 at home, 2 boys: Nicolaas15 & Gabe 5; 4 girls: Lisbeth 15, Natalie 14, Lizzie 10 & Ashleigh 8 - 2 girls away from home 22 & 17 (2 adult sons and 1 adult daughter, all single parents)
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#29
At our Church we do not interpret the Bible literally. The parables, stories and quotes are all pointers or guide posts to God's grace. Sometimes you get it and sometime you don't. It is not the words that really matter. It is what is behind the words or as one spiritual teacher put it "the spaces between the words" where the kingdom of heaven can be found!
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#30
Vikinggene,

I appreciate the contribution both you and your family have made in the governance of our country and no doubt your local community as well. I could unload my entire resume on here to try and demonstrate that I do know what I'm taking about and actually am way more involved in the domestic legislative process than probably anyone here would believe, but regardless of how many diplomas I have or you have or anybody else has, let's just agree that we're all experts in and on OUR personal situations, families, and life experiences.

I know other Virginians aren't too impressed with "Beltway" types, but again it's an over generalization. I didn't grow up here, my kids weren't born here, and we won't stay here. The military ordered me here...that doesn't make me part of the "club" or anything else. I grew up in California, by some miracle saved my life basically by going to the Air Force Academy, and have been stationed in Germany and Turkey and deployed twice each to Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm no hero, I'm a policy wonk and strategist, but none of this has come without some personal cost. You mentioned that I hadn't been swayed by the non-spanking hype found in other countries, but let's consider where I've been: Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Liberia, Kenya, Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, Pakistan, Indonesia, East Timor, Mongolia, Macedonia, Kosovo, Israel, Palestinian Territories, Cyprus, South Sudan, Madagascar, Colombia, Haiti, Georgia, Ukraine, the U.K., Ireland, Portugal, Sweden, Malta, Nigeria, Belgium, UAE, Krygyzstan...I'm not sure what that adds up to, probably forgetting a couple. Most of these I've worked in more than once. What's my point? My point is that most of the folks I know it these countries would love to be participating in this discussion if only they had electricity, regular income, Internet access, security, functioning governance, etc. When you've seen the things I've seen, you learn very quickly that most of we spend so much time yapping about in the States, has no relevance in the reat of the world, and I definitely can say that with perhaps the exception of Europe, no one gives a rat's a** about how kids get disciplined. They're trying to keep their kids alive.

So, in all honesty, I do appreciate you and your family's contribution to our American society, but let's not get into a tit for tat over who's done what or who's worked for who. I appreciate and find it impressive that your family has lived in the same area for 300 years, but let's please avoid the stereotypes, whether it's about International Policy experts, "beltway" types, Northernors, military families, or anything else. We all have our own individual experiences that we bring to the table and labels aren't helpful for anyone.

On this board, as I see it, we're all the same -- parents who are trying to do the best by their kids the best way they know how. Anything else is ancillary and superfluous.

B/r,

Robert
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