mom has started in a parenting group in church

[Julie]

hi as many here know my parents are chirstians and they ofcause want raise me and my siblings up acording to the bible so far hand and a small paddle has been used for spanking us when needed but now mom has begun to be a part of a new parenting group in the church because she is the one that take care all discipline after what had happen

so the other day mom has been to a group meeting and came home gather us in the living room and told and that from now on she would not be using hand anymore to spank but only implements or rods as they call them in her group and she took out 3 rubber spatula one for every one of us and told that it has to stay in our room for when she need them for spanking and for serious things she told us it would still be paddle that are used and from now on every spanking will be on the bare bottom.

so guess from now on its about being on the best behaviour but my sister has already tried the spatula because she did not clean her room and from her crying I assume it hurts than hand


dont know what other parents think about this and or other kids for that sake

[MelissaJean]

Ew ew ew sorry

[Garth]

In Canada we can only spank with the hand.

[Vikinggene]

It sounds like a very biblical approach. Our family doesn't use it, but we know many, many who do. The reason they do not use hands here, is they believe the parent's hand should bring only affection. The scripture uses an implement, if read literally.

I'm not taking an opinion on that style. You wouldn't like our approach. Ours was hand, bare from 2 1/2-7 years old. Once you were 8 years, my husband used a strap, always bare. It hardly ever came out of the closet. By the time they were 8, they didn't mess up very much. When they turned to teens, they tried some more serious things. But when they were reminded what that strap felt like, they settled down.

He didn't use that punishment for everything though. It was for very serious problems, repeatedly breaking the same rule, disrespect, defiance and ALWAYS for lying. In the South, where I live children answer their parents yes/no sir/ma'am. They learn this as soon as they learn to talk. Disrespect happens the instant you drop a sir or ma'am. Because of this early training, our house seldom had any disrespect over the years. My parents are both 91. I still address them as sir and ma'am.

I live in the Bible Belt of the US and a majority (90%+) of fundamental Christians handle corporal punishment the way you describe. They also expect a high degree of "cheerful obedience." I'm Catholic, which approves of hand or implement, either way. Because Christians also believe it's a grave sin to injure their children, they're not supposed to use excessive force. So there shouldn't be any issue there. This is not abnormal discipline here. Just in American schools for 2006, a student was paddled every 30 seconds. Spankings in the home are much more frequent than in schools.

I'm sure there are millions of kids in the states, whose parents do the same as your discipline group advises. The difference, between you and them is: these kids never have had a hand spank of any kind. Their first spanking is likely to take place between 13-18 months and it will be bare with a rod. The favorites around here are paint dip sticks. 18" for toddlers and 36" for older kids. They're free and people grab as many as they want. It is also common for each child to keep their own implement in a drawer or hanging in the closet of their room.

In its strictest observance, only the father punishes children. This would be an uncle or grandfather, if the father is absent. There is a more severe method in scripture. The lash (which is a belt or strap nowadays). It limits the number to 40 lashes. I'm certain my husband never went beyond 25 and that was rare. Normally it would be 8-15 depending on age and the degree of misbehavior. Only one here was over 13 to receive the strap. Only because the others behaved. Not because he wouldn't use it until 18. The one son was 15, once for drinking, once for defiance, once for lying and once for taking the car and driving it without a driver's license. He was our stubborn child. I remember every time that year. Each time I knew it had to be the last.

It's probably harder for you and your sister to get used to, since you weren't spanked this way much earlier. It sounds like your mother talks to you about what to expect. That's a good thing. Good luck.

[MelissaJean]

Some of it actually sounds a lot like my stepmom
Always a brush never her hand, religious, my sister and I each have a brush on our dressers (ew ugh yuck ouch I hate seeing it all the time)

[Vikinggene]

Sven, regarding the belief on use of a parent's hands for spanking. I'm sure, I agree with you. However, there are millions of people, who strictly follow the King James Bible, instructing parents on this and the use of a rod or lash. Other Christians take the Bible less by specific words and more by tranlations or the "spirit of the law." Eastern writers of the scriptures differ from Western Civilization's writers in style and context. Studying cultures, translations and philosophy results in varying opinions.

As long as a child is not abused or injured, what the family believes is a personal value. This is only one of many different beliefs relative to parental punishment. For instance, ages considered appropriate for spanking range from one year to twenty-one years. Or, what kind of implement is used varies. Countries have laws about spanking, also. Some parents choose to never spank. One thing I like about this forum is that people are free to share. The members offer opinions, while respecting each others' practices.

Regarding Sir and Ma'am. I understand your meaning about tone. Tone surely plays a part in how we interact with other people. Our courtesy titles are intended to SET the tone in the family setting. When a child learns the word yes, the word ma'am is taught with it. We do not hear: What?; Whatever?; non-verbal sounds; nor, are we ignored by silence. "I don't know, sir" is another proper response.

I guess it could happen that a child would take an attitude with the title. It's not my experience. If they have a tone, they try to drop the title. A majority of children here are expected to use courtesy titles for all elders, as a form of respect. Badittude is instantly recognized, because the appropriate responses are very narrow and therefore very clear. (and so are the consequences) There's no question about when the line has been crossed. The title extends to obedience, as well.

If I open the door and call to my son, I need not holler and scream directions of any kind. I merely call his name. He will immediately come to the door and answer "yes, ma'am or make it a question, ma'am? Then, he will listen to what I want to say. He will not speak first, make excuses or complain. He will look me in the eye, while I speak. If he cannot immediately physically stand in front of me, he will signal this by calling out "coming, ma'am." I will not call him again or nag. He will be there promptly or have a proper explanation. If I don't hear from him, I assume he's unconscious and go look for him. Sometimes, they say Mom or Dad. That's rare. They learn these manners as toddlers. All of this is very natural to us and our children. It may seem autocratic or dictatorial from the outside. For us, it's a peaceful, harmonious way of life.

In our house and most others, disregarding these rules will earn a spanking (or sometimes warning swat/s) for disrespect. That does especially include the wrong tone. Generally, fathers are guarded or sensitive about their wives being disrespected by anyone, in particular a child. If present, Dad will often intervene and punish a child himself. This seems to be a cultural remnant of the old South's honor/chivalry code. But, it's quite common where I live. As we all know, every rule has exceptions. We don't punish children, if there's a special circumstance that leads them to ignore this.

Parents have to make decisions about what's going on in the day of a child's life all the time. They need to use good judgment and discretion with their power and authority. The reverse of that truism is exceptions are few and far between. Adults are also expected to respect children. If a child is compliant, we use please, excuse me and thank you responses for their actions, even though obedience is expected. We don't tell them to shut up or belittle them. I'm offended, if another adult fails to respect my child. Depending on the situation, I may or may not speak to them about it. But, I'll explain to my child that the adult was wrong to address them in that way.

You're an excellent communicator, Sven. It's obvious you feel respected and secure. You have the confidence to express an opinion, while keeping an open mind. I suspect you have great role models in your parents.

I've noticed you use the courtesy titles: Mr. Ms. or Mrs. with adults, which is very polite and commendable. Our children do this, as well. They address adults only by the first name, if they have been given permission. This rule became much more relaxed over the last generation. So people aren't offended, if a child uses their first name. If they are, they will say: I prefer to be called Mrs. Smith. But, this is each person's right. Even adults observe this practice, unless a person is close enough to dispense with the title.

In closing, it's refreshing to meet youth like yourself, with a good sense of humor, too ! I look forward to reading your posts in the future. They always make me think.

[Vikinggene]

P.S. Sven and Eric, My great-grandfather arrived in America from Amsterdam in 1871. His papers say he was a subject of the Kingdom of Holland.

He was very successful in the New World and provided a good future for his descendants. I'm told he was very strict and never showed displays of affection toward his children and not to anyone in public. They addressed him as we do our parents today. Even, his wife called him Mr, unless they were in private. Generally, his children were not allowed to speak to him, unless he first spoke to them. Everything in the home was centered around him.

At dinner time, children had to stand behind their chairs, until he took his seat. He had a formal ritual. He offered a prayer, while everyone stood. His children were expected to respond with Amen. Then, he wished his family a good appetite. His children responded. Thank you, sir and you as well. Once he sat down, then the rest of the family sat down. No one picked up a fork or drank from a glass, until he had done so himself. No one was allowed to enter the dining room after he did. If you were late, you didn't eat. No one asked to be excused. He dismissed them. If he sent you away from the table, you could count on a spanking right after the meal (even those under six). Breakfast, snacks or lunch were served to him privately in the dining room. Kids ate all other meals in the kitchen.

He was very tall. I think a little over 6'4" and weighed 280 pounds. But, he looked very fit. He is said, not to have been overbearing, respected his children's ideas and adult choices. He expected them to do their best and work diligently. He was open to new ways of doing things and not very judgemental of others. He was confident in what he believed and didn't care what others thought of it. He quickly received a high degree of respect in the community. His sons were elected to local political offices. He was considered intelligent, logical and practical.

But, he was the first to try new things, like indoor bathrooms and electricity. They actually built a new house and barn on the other side of the river to access electricity. He never lost money in business and is said to have been a good negotiator, always acquiring more land. He left his family well off. Something benefiting myself to this day, over a century later. He married a German. Other than one French wife, all of our ancestors were German. However, the Dutchman is the man, who stood out among his peers. He led the family, including in-laws. (He was called the Dutchman, because he was the only one in our area.)

However free thinking he was, he didn't tolerate discord, disrespect or disobedience of any kind. He left it to his wife to train his children through age six. Then, he introduced more rules and became the sole disciplinarian. He always used a strap, once he took over. It's said he was not reluctant to use it. I always thought I would've been terrified facing that huge man holding a strap, and apparently no hugs to follow. It didn't seem to bother my grandmother any. So, he must've been prudent.

I guess for the era, he was typical. But my mother says his dinner routine was unique to their family. Maybe, it was just Continental. A little thing my mother does that's leftover from those times: she doesn't address my father as Mr. She calls my Dad "himself," when she refers to him. Not your father or my husband, just "himself." I asked her about it. She says that's how her mother spoke of her husband. She doesn't know why. Well, after the 1960s, our women no longer use "himself." It didn't make the transition But, a lot of the Dutchman's guidelines about discipline, as well as his other values, still exist in our family culture today.

[Alex]

An interesting debate, our kids never use formal titles it is always Mum or Dad, we in turn almost always use the familiar versions of their names or a varity of nicknames (JoJo is still sometimes referred to as Baby-Joe or the Lamb). I recall seeing an interview with a young actor from Texas, he used Ma'am throughout, I thought him a very polite and probably obedient child, things differ according to culture. I recall a female friend at school call her father Sir, it was deemed mildly eccentric, no more.

As for what the bible says, it says many things, particularly in the old testament, but I think one should not totally bound by words such as 'rod' or 'lash', the authors were writing many years ago, things have moved on a bit, we no longer sacrifice our children, even though it is mentioned in the bible!

Alex

[British Smacking]

It sounds like a very biblical approach. Our family doesn't use it, but we know many, many who do. The reason they do not use hands here, is they believe the parent's hand should bring only affection. The scripture uses an implement, if read literally.

I'm not taking an opinion on that style. You wouldn't like our approach. Ours was hand, bare from 2 1/2-7 years old. Once you were 8 years, my husband used a strap, always bare. It hardly ever came out of the closet. By the time they were 8, they didn't mess up very much. When they turned to teens, they tried some more serious things. But when they were reminded what that strap felt like, they settled down.

He didn't use that punishment for everything though. It was for very serious problems, repeatedly breaking the same rule, disrespect, defiance and ALWAYS for lying. In the South, where I live children answer their parents yes/no sir/ma'am. They learn this as soon as they learn to talk. Disrespect happens the instant you drop a sir or ma'am. Because of this early training, our house seldom had any disrespect over the years. My parents are both 91. I still address them as sir and ma'am.

I live in the Bible Belt of the US and a majority (90%+) of fundamental Christians handle corporal punishment the way you describe. They also expect a high degree of "cheerful obedience." I'm Catholic, which approves of hand or implement, either way. Because Christians also believe it's a grave sin to injure their children, they're not supposed to use excessive force. So there shouldn't be any issue there. This is not abnormal discipline here. Just in American schools for 2006, a student was paddled every 30 seconds. Spankings in the home are much more frequent than in schools.

I'm sure there are millions of kids in the states, whose parents do the same as your discipline group advises. The difference, between you and them is: these kids never have had a hand spank of any kind. Their first spanking is likely to take place between 13-18 months and it will be bare with a rod. The favorites around here are paint dip sticks. 18" for toddlers and 36" for older kids. They're free and people grab as many as they want. It is also common for each child to keep their own implement in a drawer or hanging in the closet of their room.

In its strictest observance, only the father punishes children. This would be an uncle or grandfather, if the father is absent. There is a more severe method in scripture. The lash (which is a belt or strap nowadays). It limits the number to 40 lashes. I'm certain my husband never went beyond 25 and that was rare. Normally it would be 8-15 depending on age and the degree of misbehavior. Only one here was over 13 to receive the strap. Only because the others behaved. Not because he wouldn't use it until 18. The one son was 15, once for drinking, once for defiance, once for lying and once for taking the car and driving it without a driver's license. He was our stubborn child. I remember every time that year. Each time I knew it had to be the last.

It's probably harder for you and your sister to get used to, since you weren't spanked this way much earlier. It sounds like your mother talks to you about what to expect. That's a good thing. Good luck.

Dear Vikinggene,
I have some questions / points i would ask about and hope you don't mind.
1/ what is " cheerful obedience " ?
2 / People near you really beat babies of 13 months with whippy rods ??
3 / How do you think that respect disappears without the use of the terms ' sir / ma'am ' - i don't understand that. And are not the use of mom / dad not the title to the fact of them being parents ?

With intereast to your enlightening me
B.S.

[MelissaJean]

Cheerful obedience sucks